You Down With CPCs? – Legal Talk Network

Episode Notes

In the information, market consolidation continues with Litify’s buy of LegalStratus. And the blokes focus on Ohio’s current brief-sighted determination to roll again lawyer promoting by banning aggressive model bidding. 

Gyi and Conrad have extra education to do in relation to lawyer advert regulation. But first, the 2 create a glossary of on-line advert cost sorts: CPC, CPM, CPL, and CPA. Listen rigorously. There could also be a quiz down the road.

In a brand new section, “Dear State Bar Regulator,” Gyi appeals to bar regulators in Texas, Florida, and South Carolina to revisit guidelines that put attorneys at a aggressive drawback in fashionable legislation observe. 

Gyi and Conrad invite evaluations of #LHLM, even from bar leaders who might by no means once more invite them to talk at a convention. 

Special because of our sponsors Alert Communications, LexisNexis® InterAction®, LawYaw and Clio.


Conrad Saam: Welcome to the Lunch Hour Legal Marketing podcast and Gyi, I’m going to begin this with the exhortation to all of our listeners to not begin a podcast. Do you need to know why?

Gyi Tsakalakis: No, I don’t. What are we doing proper now?

Conrad Saam: Let me guess this. What proportion of podcasts fail inside the first yr?

Gyi Tsakalakis: I imply 99.999 repeating?

Conrad Saam: It’s 82%.

Gyi Tsakalakis: What’s fail by the best way?

Conrad Saam: Oh, truthful query, 82% of podcasts should not have an episode inside the previous three months.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Just they die.

Conrad Saam: They die. They simply quit.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Now, right here’s my query. What proportion of podcasts meet their preliminary goal?

Conrad Saam: Well, lower than 82%, proper? No, take into consideration why would you even begin a podcast? Why does anyone begin a podcast? Why do we’ve a podcast?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, I believe —

Conrad Saam: We don’t have anything else to do.

Gyi Tsakalakis: The idea of podcasts is nice, proper? And I believe as we study to eat media in numerous methods, there’s video and there’s written and there’s running a blog and there’s podcasts and there’s TikTook and there’s all kinds of various ways in which we eat media, it’s factor. The downside is, from my perspective, twofold. One, there’s plenty of them and it’s not like individuals are rising extra ears or commuting extra or the podcast hour listenership whereas rising just isn’t rising as quick because the variety of podcasts and two, fairly frankly, this is similar downside that blogs have. It’s authorized. There aren’t that many individuals that need to hearken to a podcast in regards to the high 10 issues to do if you get rear-ended in your motor scooter, proper?

Conrad Saam: Yeah, that’s a very dangerous instance however I hear your level.

Gyi Tsakalakis: I mentioned podcast, if you need a podcast but when someone informed you you’re going to podcast your solution to tens of millions, that’s the place to me the issue lies.

Conrad Saam: Wait, we preserve coming again to this. Zero to seven figures in three simple steps in two months.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Podcast your solution to the highest of the Google rankings.

Conrad Saam: Well, so, I imply right here’s the factor — oh, do you need to go there?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Nope. Hit the run down.

Conrad Saam: Yeah, you do. You’ve teased me once more, Gyi. So by the best way, podcasting is tremendous profitable, proper? But it’s lots of work and I believe a lot of you don’t notice the work that goes behind the shiny factor so I did really — I used to be instigated by a weblog publish that I learn someplace that talked in regards to the hyperlinks that you may put in a podcast, which I’m not fairly the — all of the website positioning upside of placing hyperlinks in your podcast. Just suppose that by for somewhat bit and in the event you can’t perceive why that’s ridiculous, additionally don’t begin a podcast.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Go learn Mockingbird Marketing Blog on podcasts.

Conrad Saam: Well, no, what I actually need to say is in the event you do need to do a podcast, our superior audio producer, Adam Lockwood, who’s sitting in with this recording session proper now did me an enormous favor and wrote an extended publish on tips on how to do it proper, tips on how to get the audio proper, and all of the work that goes into making that occur. So in the event you’re critical about it, get critical, however you’ll not podcast your solution to tens of millions.

Gyi Tsakalakis: What else are we going to speak about at present apart from podcasts?

Conrad Saam: Today on the docket as at all times is information. We’re going to go over evaluations, we’re going to do a small brief class on my favourite TLA, three letter acronyms. Gyi can be going to offend all of our state bars and get us uninvited to all talking engagements sooner or later with a brand new section we name Dear State Bar Regulator, and with that, let’s hit some music.


Intro: Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Teaching you tips on how to promote, market and make fats stacks to your authorized observe right here on Legal Talk Network.


Gyi Tsakalakis: Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Before we get began, we wished to thank our sponsors LawYaw, Alert Communications, LexisNexis InterAction, and Clio.

Conrad Saam: All proper. On to the information.


Conrad Saam: In NNA exercise, Litify purchased LegalStratus. This was an fascinating factor. Litify, which is an consumption administration software program has now bought what to me has been an unknown. Gyi, have you ever ever heard of LegalStratus?

Gyi Tsakalakis: I had not till I noticed on LinkedIn that Litify purchased them.

Conrad Saam: Likewise. At which level I seemed them up and I used to be like, oh it’s a matter administration software program. My level right here is there’s integration between consumption administration and matter administration and that’s sorely missed and wanted even when the Litify acquisition is from and I’m in all probability going to — right here we go, offending individuals once more, we’re in all probability going to offend individuals however by no means heard of LegalStratus however integration, Clio purchased what was referred to as Lexicata, which now grew to become Clio Grow like you will note increasingly integration right here. It simply is smart from a software program perspective.


Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, why it is smart? It is smart from a consumer journey perspective, proper?

Conrad Saam: 100%.

Gyi Tsakalakis: You begin out, you get into the pipeline and you then get moved to a consumer and you then get moved and even past that.

Conrad Saam: Are you carrying the consumer flag once more?

Gyi Tsakalakis: I’m making an attempt, poor purchasers.

Conrad Saam: You do job with that. In different information, simply south of Michigan, state bar regulators have banned aggressive model bidding within the PPC markets. Gyi, good or dangerous?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, in the event you really learn it, Eric Goldman, a professor at SCU Law who has an amazing weblog, by the best way in the event you search Eric Goldman’s weblog, writes in regards to the intersection of expertise promoting amongst different issues however the evaluation is prefer it simply is one other — after we get into Dear State Bar Regulator, it’s only a demonstration of like they’re catching up. So, the brief model is in Ohio, you can’t bid in your competitor’s identify.

Here’s the issue. You may not even bid in your competitor’s identify and also you may nonetheless present up for a search in your competitor’s identify as a result of Google does issues like shut variance and there’s all kinds of matching issues and so, my view of the aggressive bidding, let’s simply take the ethics out of it for a second and give it some thought. I imply, I’d love to listen to your suggestions on this. I believe it’s fairly uncommon that you just really get an amazing return out of a aggressive bidding state of affairs. I believe so. I’d wish to see your numbers on that. I do know you’re making a face at me, however the different factor too is there may be fame and relationship injury that’s achieved in your local people bidding on rivals’ names particularly in the event you’re in a small group. That’s the factor that individuals don’t give it some thought’s like in the event you turn into the lawyer who’s dealing on the competitors’s identify, are you really jeopardizing relationships with individuals which may in any other case refer you enterprise? That’s my query.

Conrad Saam: Okay, very first thing I need to unpack somewhat bit is you mentioned shut variance.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah.

Conrad Saam: And I’m going to unpack what which means as a result of I believe it’s vital. Google has began to understand that some model names imply private harm lawyer for instance, and so, they confuse successfully a seek for private harm lawyer or Morgan & Morgan with the opposite factor, which implies relying on how you might have your marketing campaign arrange, you’ll be able to unintentionally be bidding on these model names, which we’ve seen quite a bit. I believe that may be a —

Gyi Tsakalakis: That’s the commonest instance of it.

Conrad Saam: It’s a quite common instance.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And the attorneys all suppose, “Oh my gosh, they’re bidding on my identify.”

Conrad Saam: And then they get mad. And so, from a pure pragmatic perspective, what are you going to do? Walk over to the state bar regulator and demand entry to another person’s Google Ads account to see whether or not or not this shut variance idea is being carried out which is why they’re –?” like no.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, you would subpoena them if you wish to get critical about it. The different instance that was introduced as much as me was like, “Oh effectively, have you learnt the way you clear up that? You simply add all of these model key phrases as negatives.” So simply take your complete attorneys, the state bar listing to your state and put all of the attorneys names as negatives in your marketing campaign.

Conrad Saam: And all of the manufacturers of their legislation companies.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Right. Don’t overlook in regards to the commerce names.

Conrad Saam: Yes and there are 800 numbers that they’re promoting on tv. So I’d be very happy to take your cash on an hourly fee–

Gyi Tsakalakis: Let me provide the counterpoint that I believe this may really may resonate with you is that I’ve at all times checked out this like in the event you’re not deceptive the buyer, let’s assume that I’m not bidding on Morgan & Morgan after which saying in my advert copy, I’m really Morgan & Morgan after which they’re calling me. That’s clearly false and deceptive and the FTC in all probability needs to get entangled in that, be no completely different than if Nike was like bidding on adidas and being like “that is an adidas advert.”

Conrad Saam: It is completely different as a result of everybody is aware of Nike and everybody is aware of adidas.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Not everyone is aware of Morgan & Morgan?

Conrad Saam: Well no, however like not everybody is aware of Smith & Jones who may be bidding on Morgan & Morgan. I don’t suppose you’re essentially coping with an trade that has form of that widespread model recognition. There’s plenty of little gamers and I’ve mentioned this for a very long time, only a few individuals exterior of the authorized trade have a lot model consciousness exterior of closely marketed PR markets of lawyer manufacturers. And so, due to this fact, I believe there may be an argument to be made that there’s model confusion on this, proper? I believe there may be model confusion on this.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Let me offer you this one. I’m bidding on Morgan & Morgan and my advert says not Morgan & Morgan.


Conrad Saam: Well, your advert can’t say that as a result of you’ll be able to’t say Morgan & Morgan however you would say–

Gyi Tsakalakis: Consider the choice. Don’t go along with them, go along with us.

Conrad Saam: Yeah, nice. Game on, proper? Or like so let me take Morgan & Morgan for instance. Let me ask you this query. Morgan & Morgan has the — I’m not loving this, Allan McDonald’s as we’re speaking about manufacturers, dimension issues, proper? I’m undecided I’d have leaned into that as my catchphrase nevertheless it’s definitely memorable. Could you might have an advert enjoying off the scale matter, larger isn’t at all times higher proper? I can see a really intelligent advert enjoying off larger not being higher. That’s not deceptive, do you suppose companies ought to nonetheless have the ability to try this?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. I really do from in a purely philosophical sense. I imply, I believe that it really is healthier for the buyer to present them choices to have the ability to say, let’s overlook in regards to the reputational facet, let’s overlook in regards to the relationships, let’s overlook in regards to the deceptive half, let’s simply say is it good for the potential purchasers, for the authorized companies client for attorneys to have the ability to compete on model? And I believe the reply is sure as a result of extra choices to have the ability to say like this lawyer’s $300 an hour, I can do the identical factor in concept and that is one other —

I believe one of many main points that attorneys don’t like about this and state bar regulators don’t like about and we’ll discuss this extra after we get to my letter to state bar regulators is attorneys are particular. They’re not widgets. It’s a career and so like in an ideal world, the regulators need potential purchasers to be making this hiring determination primarily based on purely goal standards that’s very troublesome to quantify as a result of lawyer companies aren’t fungible and so, that’s the place I believe the issue, actually that’s the basis of the difficulty and they also’re saying, it’s not truthful as a result of there was really a case and Goldman’s article talks quite a bit about this as a result of there’s a bunch of various bases you may convey a criticism in opposition to someone for doing this whether or not it’s — I’m blanking on what all of the completely different phrases are. We would have gone quite a bit deeper on this and I assumed —

Conrad Saam: I really like when the information turns into banter between you and I about philosophical and Gyi has painted me as a little bit of the villain by way of teasing and poking different businesses. Gyi, I figured your motif out, it’s the client advocate. It’s a really Google-specific perspective.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, that is the factor. The complete level of all this regulation is meant to be to guard the customers. It’s supposed to have the ability to defend the buyer who will get misled or it’s not supposed to guard the guild, it’s not supposed to guard the attorneys guild. The level of those authorized ethics guidelines are to not make issues, defend the attorneys.

Conrad Saam: Okay, I’m sorry. It’s my diatribe. That was our longest information section tangent.

Gyi Tsakalakis: That was lengthy.

Conrad Saam: Now we don’t have time to speak about anything.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Next time.

Conrad Saam: We’re going to speak proper again about this in Dear State Bar Regulator. However, proper now, we’re going to speak about some evaluations.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Leave us a evaluate. Pull over proper now. Are you listening to this when you’re driving? Pull your automobile over and go away us a evaluate. If you’ll be able to’t stand me being a client advocate and beating up on state bars or Conrad shilling for Google, go go away us a evaluate.

Conrad Saam: This goes again into why it’s arduous to begin a podcast as a result of these algorithms, the issues that make extra individuals prone to hearken to you, you guys suppose it’s arduous to get evaluations to your legislation agency? Now you must get evaluations for the legislation agency and your podcast, proper?

Gyi Tsakalakis: And your podcast about automobile accidents.

Conrad Saam: Yeah, precisely. So, that is arduous however go, go away us a evaluate and in addition, we should always thank Louisiana State Bar for sharing our episodes right here proper earlier than Gyi sends his state bar regulator letter on this episode however yeah, it’ll assist us discover extra individuals similar to you. Let’s take a break.


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Gyi Tsakalakis: Okay, class. Welcome to LHLM 101. Today’s matter, promoting alphabet soup, please have a seat. Let’s get began. Conrad, don’t eat that. Today, we’re speaking about promoting alphabet soup. I’m Professor Gyi together with Professor Conrad. Conrad, after we say promoting alphabet soup, what within the heck are we speaking about?

Conrad Saam: So, at present’s class, we’re going to cowl what are usually referred to as TLAs or three-letter acronyms. This particular material we’re going to be speaking about is other ways of shopping for promoting, okay? And so, there are completely different fashions of those, all of them fall into a 3-letter acronym. So we’re going to speak about CPC, CPM, CPL, CPA, what all these various things imply. So, Gyi, have you ever ever — CPC can be regularly referred to as PPC, completely different paying fashions, pay-per-click on or value per click on, the explanation I like PPC over CPC is as a result of from time to time, have you ever ever had somebody ask you about paperclip promoting?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Paperclip promoting.

Conrad Saam: It hasn’t occurred for a very long time however —

Gyi Tsakalakis: That’s an amazing thought for a model identify for a search firm. Paperclip advertising and marketing.

Conrad Saam: Yes. So, can we stroll by these completely different fashions, Gyi? Cost per click on.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Cost per click on.

Conrad Saam: CPM, CPL and CPA.

Gyi Tsakalakis: You know what’s fascinating about all these? The first C is similar for all of them.

Conrad Saam: They may simply be two-letter acronyms, through which case, my three-letter acronym TLA would nonetheless work besides it wouldn’t be as ironic.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Let’s begin with CPC. What’s CPC, Conrad? Professor Conrad?

Conrad Saam: So CPC stands for value per click on or pay-per-click on, not paperclip and this can be a state of affairs through which you principally pay each time somebody clicks on that commercial. There are different ways in which the clicks can really be counted. You might click on one thing to view a cellphone quantity however in the end, you’re solely paying when somebody really clicks on that commercial.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Made well-known by our good buddies at Google with the Google Ads platform.

Conrad Saam: Correct. CPM will get somewhat bit extra complicated and there’s somewhat bit extra math concerned. Gyi, what’s a value per thousand?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, value for thousand, which I used to be really going to ask you. Is the M is Latin for?

Conrad Saam: Yeah, it’s the roman numeral for a thousand.

Gyi Tsakalakis: The roman numeral for a thousand, thanks. CPM, you pay per thousand impressions. So you get a thousand impressions, you pay a value.

Conrad Saam: Typically achieved with show or video promoting and one of many keys right here that I believe is vital to notice is with CPM promoting, these impressions can and never all impressions, that is the animal farm or 1984 model of internet advertising, not all impressions are created equal and there was plenty of ways in which publishers have hidden impressions or over-counted impressions and I provides you with a few them. One is how a lot of the advert really hundreds, proper? And so, is it the entire advert, is it a part of the advert? If you’re taking a look at a video, do you must see the entire thing? What does that appear like? So really the proportion of the advert that really exhibits as a query.

Where the advert exhibits on that web page can be a query. So one of many ways in which publishers stuff advertisements into content material with out ruining the person expertise is to stuff all these advertisements on the very backside of a web page that nobody ever appears at.

The last factor, Gyi, I don’t know in the event you’ve ever run into this however I’ve not too long ago, that is referred to as advert stacking the place you’ll be able to load a thousand advertisements actually on high of one another.

Gyi Tsakalakis: That’s nasty.

Conrad Saam: It is nasty. It’s tremendous nasty. I don’t need to scare individuals away from the sort of promoting. I do nevertheless need to reinforce the necessity to just be sure you have good reporting in place to find out whether or not or not it’s value your time. So the stacking downside is principally I’m going to promote this one piece of stock on an internet web page to a thousand completely different advertisers and I’m going to report back to all of them that we loaded their content material however they’re only one on high of the opposite like a deck of playing cards.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, I imply, you discuss reporting however such as you obtained to grasp marketing campaign goals as a result of in the event you’re operating CPM and also you run up impressions, how do you do attribution there, Conrad?

Conrad Saam: We’ve obtained our fundamental 101 course and also you need to go into multi-channel attribution modeling? No, you’ll be able to’t — see, you retain teasing the viewers and you then push me into this stuff. So I’ll reply your query. So let me restate the query after which I’ll reply it with my philosophy on how this works. Multi-touch attribution modeling principally says there are a number of advertising and marketing channels which can be going to influence whether or not or not somebody ultimately connects and turns into a consumer of my legislation agency.


For instance, you do an website positioning question, you land on a web page, you get retargeting show commercials, perhaps afterward you see an advert a few video advert on YouTube, you run one other click on, you click on on a Google Ad and ultimately, you name and switch right into a consumer. Maybe you get a e-newsletter reminder, et cetera, blah blah blah. So our simplistic attribution modeling used to appear like both first or final contact. The first time somebody got here to your web site or the primary time we may begin monitoring that individual obtained the entire credit score or you might have final contact, which is the final time, the final channel.

Clearly, it’s philosophical and doesn’t actually work. There are plenty of completely different attribution modeling. One of the commonest is 40-20-40 the place you get 40% of the worth to the primary contact, 40% of the worth to the final contact after which something within the center you break up amongst 20%. All of those are theoretical machinations that don’t actually make sense as a result of they don’t actually have a deep understanding.

My sincere reply to your query — very lengthy-winded reply to your quite simple query, Gyi, is on the finish of the day, if you’re coping with a multi-contact attribution modeling state of affairs, you add all the pieces up, you divide and that’s your value per consumer proper? Because it’s so arduous to make use of these theoretical fashions to precisely allocate what that appears like.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Right. Especially if you’re speaking about model as a result of — proper? “Oh, how did you discover us?” Which I do know you hate that however let’s simply say that you just’re asking that query, how did you discover us. “Oh, I don’t know, I heard your identify someplace.” Was that since you obtained proven 5,000 impressions of a show advert or was it as a result of one thing else?

Conrad Saam: Yeah, anyway.

Gyi Tsakalakis: All proper, transferring on.

Conrad Saam: Moving again — in order that was a teaser for subsequent yr’s class, advertising and marketing 201.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, that was like 401.

Conrad Saam: That was — yeah. It could be —

Gyi Tsakalakis: The graduate expertise.

Conrad Saam: Okay. So let’s return. So CPL, value per lead has not too long ago come on the scene within the digital advertising and marketing house with what, Gyi?

Gyi Tsakalakis: LSAs. Another —

Conrad Saam: Another TLA.

Gyi Tsakalakis: LSA is the brand new TLA.

Conrad Saam: Okay, what’s CPL, value per lead, how does this work with the TLA framework?

Gyi Tsakalakis: You simply pay, you don’t pay for a click on, you don’t pay for an impression, you pay when somebody really contacts you and ideally, in the event you even need to throw a Q in there, CPQL, value per certified lead —

Conrad Saam: Oh, you need to go there? Okay, good. What do you imply by value per certified lead?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, , you’re operating an LSA and also you’re a private harm lawyer and somebody contacts you for chapter assist, you may go to Google and say, that’s not a certified lead and so, I need a refund or dispute it.

Conrad Saam: And will Google offer you that refund?

Gyi Tsakalakis: You know, they’ve really been fairly good from my expertise up to now. It’s nonetheless early and we’ll see how that each one scales however the tough ones turn into like in the event you solely verify like catastrophic harm and that’s like, effectively, in the event that they’re technically harm, you’ll be able to’t actually dispute these but when it’s actually like cross-observe areas, you verify simply the automobile accident field and folks begin coming, asking you for divorce assist, they’ll offer you a refund for these.

Conrad Saam: Okay. So value per lead, value per certified lead. As a precursor, we’re going to return again to value per certified lead somewhat bit additional. Let me ask one other query, socratically, as a result of I do know the reply, what if I by no means discuss to that individual they usually simply go away a voicemail in Google native service advertisements? Am I nonetheless paying for that?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Oh yeah.

Conrad Saam: Yeah, child.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Oh yeah.

Conrad Saam: So, phrase to the sensible, thou hath higher have an excellent consumption expertise when you’re operating these advertisements and in the event you’re not going to —

Okay. The final one, CPA. Is this a licensed public accountant, Gyi?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yes. No, it’s value per acquisition.

Conrad Saam: All proper. So after we discuss value per acquisition, what will we imply right here?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, I’ll inform you what I imply. You may imply one thing completely different. I imply value per consumer.

Conrad Saam: Okay.

Gyi Tsakalakis: What do you imply?

Conrad Saam: I believe one of many ways in which CPA is usually used poorly particularly for authorized is on the price per motion the place you’re making an attempt to get somebody to do one thing.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Right. Cost per obtain?

Conrad Saam: Cost per obtain. You may even do like a value per — like you would be operating all kinds of issues however like solely pay for it when individuals name you, proper? And so, you’re making an attempt to get individuals to do one thing, no matter that motion may be. The downside as Gyi highlighted is that factor actually is very in a web based reporting system, it hardly ever is somebody signed up for my service, proper? Someone signed it for my authorized service.


If I’m making an attempt to promote them calculators or to enroll in a authorized advertising and marketing convention the place that last acquisition may be tracked on-line, CPA can really be actually useful but most of you should not have the infrastructure to report again to that precise acquisition into your reporting infrastructure, proper? And so, by and huge I discover whereas a lot of the promoting trade embraces value per motion as a result of it takes the entire threat away. In our case, with value per acquisition, there are only a few publishers who work on a CPA mannequin as a result of it’s so arduous, A, to trace and B, to really quantify how worthwhile that finish consumer is.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah and my factor is like irrespective of the way you’re paying to your advertisements, it’s best to at all times be doing a CPA evaluation on the again finish as a result of I don’t care in the event you’re doing a Google Ads marketing campaign, hitting a goal value per click on is meaningless, oh yeah, if you hear this with businesses, oh he introduced your value per click on down.

Conrad Saam: Oh that may be loopy!

Gyi Tsakalakis: That drives me nuts.

Conrad Saam: Oh man. Okay sorry.

Gyi Tsakalakis: You ought to see Conrad, he’s actually simply exploded.

Conrad Saam: Can you discuss why that’s so silly after which I’ll anecdote this for you?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, I can’t even consider why that’s even a factor. I imply, I suppose in concept, you’re such as you obtained extra — if clicks have been lumber, you bought extra clicks for a decrease value, I suppose that’s factor.

Conrad Saam: The rising worth of lumber.

Gyi Tsakalakis: You will pay half as a lot for a click on and have half the acquisition and double the acquisition value and it’s like what was the purpose of that?

Conrad Saam: True and really current anecdote. We have a consumer for whom we’ve been working for for some time and I will probably be blunt, we’ve struggled with success for this consumer and Gyi, I’ve introduced you in to have a look at this consumer. We’ve introduced in a bunch of various individuals to have a look at their work and it’s in a really aggressive market and I will probably be blunt, we’ve struggled. We introduced in one other company to have a look at a few of their stuff they usually wished to have a look at the CPC work. So we handed the reins over to the opposite company to run CPC for some time and see what occurred and their complete focus was on dropping value per click on. What the hell are you guys doing? If you’re making an attempt to get private harm instances with a value per click on underneath 10 bucks, like simply what are you doing? Why do you? It’s simply insane.

This is why a lot of you, particularly the businesses who don’t work in authorized are targeted on the precise improper factor. Sorry, that simply hit a nerve as a result of I actually, we had this dialog two weeks in the past.

Gyi Tsakalakis: It’s a contemporary wound.

Conrad Saam: Fresh wound. Cost per click on. Terrible metric to find out whether or not or not that is working, proper?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Anyway, the explanation we discuss these items is that is what’s on the market for dangerous shopping for, obtained to grasp what it’s earlier than you begin spending cash however on the finish of the day, what we should always have talked about was one other acronym referred to as ROAS however you bought to consider what the significant metrics are for the best way —

Conrad Saam: That’s 201.

Gyi Tsakalakis: 201, subsequent time.

Conrad Saam: So I’ll inform you this. Even earlier than you get into return on advert spend and above these metrics that we simply talked about, Gyi talked about value per certified lead, which is absolutely vital and it’s coming into play within the native service advert recreation. However, I believe all of you need to be angling in direction of evaluating your promoting spend, value per preliminary session, proper? What occurs after that preliminary session, what occurs earlier than that preliminary session, there’s lots of variability inside there, however in the event you’re taking a look at value per preliminary session by advertising and marketing channel and you’ve got the infrastructure to comprehensively have a look at your entire inbounds and monitor your entire inbounds right down to that preliminary session, that’s the place — like in the event you can simply focus your mind on that versus like CPC charges or bounce charges or another rubbish like that, that’s the place you begin making good choices.

And subsequent, the authorized developments report dropped at you by Clio.

All proper, Gyi, do you know 42% of solo legislation companies function with out business workplace house? In reality, 9% of solo companies gave up their business workplace house within the final yr, surprisingly low quantity to me, Gyi.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, I hear that. We’re speaking solos, I believe that’s vital however yeah, gosh, it’s going to be fascinating to see how this all performs out.


Conrad Saam: And tying in, so one of many knowledge factors that we’ve talked about quite a bit is income, profitability, solo legislation companies making 50 grand extra in income than different legislation companies on a per lawyer foundation. As you embrace expertise, proper?

Gyi Tsakalakis: You can reduce your workplace overhead, you’ll be able to dump your lease.

Conrad Saam: Dump your lease, earn more money, proper? It’s quite simple math.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Right. Well and I believe the fascinating factor that we’re going to see as a result of I at all times suppose perhaps naively that the market drives a lot of this however the query goes to be do purchasers care. Do purchasers care, do they need to see you in sure context or are they tremendous with being on Zoom? Because right here’s the factor, we all know that in the event you’re utilizing expertise particularly expertise that lets you service purchasers remotely, you’ll be able to develop the proximity of the place you serve purchasers, proper? So in the event you promote like, “Hey, you don’t want to return in, you’ll be able to develop the radius round wherever you might be.”

In reality, you may be anyplace and serve purchasers. I do know Lee Rosen talks about this. He’s all around the world serving purchasers. For his consumer base, it doesn’t matter. I’m going to be curious to see in sure context whether or not purchasers are like, “I need to meet you at your workplace,” and what do you do? “Well, I don’t have an workplace. See you on Zoom.”

Conrad Saam: So George Psiharis talked about this at our final –

Gyi Tsakalakis: Right. Go hearken to final episode.

Conrad Saam: Go hearken to the final episode with George as a result of it was actually good and one of many issues that he does an excellent job of verbalizing was the completely different wants for various purchasers and at completely different factors in your cycle and what I need to emphasize right here is there are some instances when expertise may be tremendous useful and for some purchasers the place it’s tremendous useful and there are different instances the place I believe George mentioned this rather well, individuals simply need to spill their guts in individual, proper? And so, a part of that is studying purchasers. Yes, expertise makes it simple for us to have Zoom conferences or for us to document podcasts in three completely different states like very simple.

Sometimes particularly with that empathy, the necessity for authorized empathy, there may be an impersonal aspect to this.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And do they need to spill their guts at Starbucks as a result of that’s the most suitable choice you’ve obtained in the event you don’t have an workplace, proper?

Conrad Saam: Right. Let’s get a really quiet nook of Starbucks to speak about —

Gyi Tsakalakis: No one hearken to us, we’re speaking about confidential issues.

Conrad Saam: We’re speaking about your marriage falling aside in Starbucks. Okay. To study extra about these alternatives and way more at no cost, obtain Clio’s authorized developments report for solo legislation companies at That’s Clio spelled C-L-I-O. Let’s go to interrupt.


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Gyi Tsakalakis: And we’re again with a brand new section that we’re calling Dear State Bar Regulator. Dear state bar regulator, I recognize that it’s a troublesome job to navigate all of those new applied sciences within the context of lawyering typically however extra particularly promoting and advertising and marketing, nevertheless it’s time to catch up and I do know that this isn’t going to make us buddies and as Conrad talked about within the outset, we are going to not be invited to talk at state bar conventions like for instance, Dear Texas, do I actually nonetheless have to print out each single certainly one of my net pages and advertisements and social media posts to ship to you for pre-approval? Like what am I alleged to do? Am I supposed to love reserve it as a draft first? Am I supposed to save lots of my Twitter publish as a draft after which ship it to you if I’m making communication about authorized companies?

Dear Florida, am I actually not alleged to enchantment to the feelings of my viewers as a result of in any other case, that’s by definition deceptive or manipulative?

Dear South Carolina, I can declare my Google My Business profile and I may even ask my comfortable purchasers to go say one thing good about me there but when they are saying one thing good and it violates different state bar guidelines, I’m accountable for the content material of their evaluate and I don’t have the flexibility to take away it?

Dear state bar regulators, please assist our poor authorized career kind out these points and lots of, many others by fixing a few of these guidelines or revisiting them or one thing. Help us!

Conrad Saam: Help us. Help us show you how to to assist us.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Help the attorneys.


Conrad Saam: So I imply, the assistance us factor is absolutely fascinating, Gyi, as a result of we’re coping with a handicapping of attorneys when the authorized trade is — let me watch out after I say the authorized trade.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Be cautious.

Conrad Saam: Lawyers are more and more competing with non-attorneys inside the authorized trade and but they’re being held to the next customary than their competitors.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Here’s a simple instance for individuals who are getting all of the gobbledygook and are tired of all of the ethics stuff, right here’s the instance. You’re in South Carolina. You declare your Google My Business profile, your consumer says, “Conrad was the very best lawyer, he’s the very best lawyer I’ve ever seen.” Oh, really I don’t even know if South Carolina if you should utilize greatest as a superlative. Let’s simply say —

Conrad Saam: As a consumer, I can say that.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Not if the lawyer, in South Carolina, if the lawyer informed you to go try this —

Conrad Saam: This is your level precisely, proper?

Gyi Tsakalakis: And then, now, let’s additionally say however guess who may be in South Carolina and say, “Best wills legal professional,” as he discovered right here of their title tags, LegalZoom, Avvo,, everyone over at Internet manufacturers. They can all use the superlative.

Conrad Saam: They can use the superlative of their H1s and title tags to seize that juicy website positioning question for greatest wills and estates legal professional in South Carolina, proper?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Right. And then I suppose this section’s turning extra right into a rant than anything. I would like it to be constructive. I get requested, what ought to I do? I’m in South Carolina, what ought to I do? Not declare my Google My Business itemizing? Does that appear lifelike and truthful? It’s an enormous aggressive drawback. Put a disclaimer up, “Hey, we don’t really solicit individuals. If they see evaluations right here, we didn’t really ask anyone to try this.” Or and what my recommendation is? Challenge the rule within the Supreme Court “I simply can’t imagine that is constitutional!” We get Josh King on right here.

Conrad Saam: He’s now in Arizona.

Gyi Tsakalakis: They obtained some enjoyable guidelines too.

Conrad Saam: Let me channel my internal Josh King. Josh King would say sue the state bars, which is what he did plenty of for the best to speak about how nice you might be, which goes to additional disenchant the state bar regulators with the Conrad and Gyi present; nevertheless, sooner or later, this aggressive drawback is one thing that the attorneys aren’t going to have the ability to stand for.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Right, effectively, how about this? What is the intersection of non-lawyer-owned legislation companies and these state bar–

Conrad Saam: Speaking of Arizona, proper.

Gyi Tsakalakis: And once more, look, we’re all very involved for the authorized companies customers. They’re going to be misled of their nice time of want and duress by these very refined savvy lawyer advertisers who’re — after which, you go and also you ask like what number of complaints have been filed by a authorized companies client as a result of they felt that they have been unduly manipulated by an emotional advert?

Conrad Saam: That is an excellent check, proper? As you have been speaking, Gyi, I used to be considering I used to be going to say expensive state bar regulator, customers aren’t as silly as you suppose they’re after which I used to be like, perhaps that’s not really correct. But your level is definitely actually legitimate, poignant, vital. The complaints that state bars obtain from individuals relating to the advertising and marketing superlatives which can be utilized by attorneys in comparison with the opposite complaints that the state bar regulators have acquired about attorneys, 99 to 1, 101, proper? Like I simply can’t think about that the state bars are overwhelmed with complaints in regards to the advertising and marketing of attorneys, not —

Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, the place the one criticism comes from?

Conrad Saam: Lawyers?

Gyi Tsakalakis: Right. The competitors, proper? I’m going to take their advertisements down, get their account suspended.

Conrad Saam: Yeah. It’s both attorneys or attorneys performing by customers, proper?

Gyi Tsakalakis: If this doesn’t get us a adverse evaluate on Apple podcast, I don’t know what is going to.

Conrad Saam: Dear state bar regulator, please don’t evaluate Lunch Hour Legal Marketing on Apple podcast.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Please do.

Conrad Saam: Actually, what’s fascinating? We’d have to search out the best individual, it could be very fascinating to have a dialog round these points with somebody, say, from Florida.

Gyi Tsakalakis: Yes, the writer of the handbook on lawyer promoting for the state bar of Florida, please contact us. Not with a stop and desist.

Conrad Saam: I don’t suppose that’s going to —

Gyi Tsakalakis: Volunteering to be a visitor.

Conrad Saam: And with that, we thanks listeners, as at all times, even you state bar regulators who’re listening, please do go comply with us, like us, subscribe to us, no matter you are able to do to —

Gyi Tsakalakis: Review us.

Conrad Saam: Review us, ship us a message and hashtag us at LHLM on the varied socials. Until subsequent time, that is Professor Conrad and pupil Gyi with Lunch Hour Legal Marketing.


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The views expressed by the individuals of this program are their very own and don’t characterize the views of, nor are they endorsed by Legal Talk Network, its officers, administrators, staff, brokers, representatives, shareholders, or subsidiaries. None of the content material must be thought-about authorized recommendation. As at all times, seek the advice of a lawyer.



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